Exploring the Impact of Trauma: A Conversation with Family Court Mediator, Rosemary Gattuso

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Welcome to Live Experience Podcast. I'm your host, Joel Kleber, and I've been off for a while and that's not due to anything that's been a problem, but it's just been, you know, I work a lot. I work very hard, even though I'm an employee, I do treat the business I work in like my own. So I work ridiculous hours. Um, I don't have a family or anything, so I can, but it's not healthy for me, but it also puts me away from doing this podcast as my work is fairly mentally draining and it's pretty much seven days a week. So that's why I have been, um, not a lot of the content. But on today's episode, I have an interview with Rosemary Cattuzo, who reached out to me a while ago, and we finally got around to having her on. And Rosemary's a family law court mediator, which I think is quite interesting in itself. And she's got a big interest in trauma, so she's writing a book about it. And, um, I think her experiences and what she shared was very, very helpful. So you can check out her website at rosemarycattuzo.com.au and, um, Yeah, it was a very interesting chat. I learned a lot and hearing Rosemary's perspective is quite interesting. And it's great to hear someone talk about things in a different way from you. And I would not talk about trauma and stuff or even have the ideas that Rosemary had. So it was really good to have her on. If you do want to share your experience on the podcast, make sure you reach out to me at livedexperiencepodcast.com. I'd love to have you on. I do think it's a therapeutic thing to share your story if you want to. And I try and do the best I can with that. And we put it on the website, we make a blog and audio episode and video episode as well. And I know that it does help people. So your story does help people. So please share it on livedexperiencepodcast.com. I'm really after people. you know, bipolar, schizophrenia, young carers or people that have had, you know, family mental health challenges. That's what I'm really after. Um, you know, we've got come, R U OK? Day, I think coming up this week and we'll go to the, you know, the whole depression and talk, talk, talk sort of stuff. And, you know, we do that every year, but I think these deep, powerful stories, um, if you've listened to the previous episodes on the podcast, you'll know that they're, that's the true meat and potatoes of mental illness and mental health all from different perspectives from people. around the world. So please make sure if you want to share it, jump on livewithexperiencepodcast.com. Without further ado, here's the episode today with Rosemary Gattuso. So I'm joined by Rosemary Gattuso. Now, you're a lawyer, you've got a master's in law, you've also written a book and you've done a whole bunch of other things as well. So maybe do you want to just run through with a quick introduction about yourself, Rosemary, before we start asking the questions on today's episode? Sure, sounds good. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And yes, I do have a legal background though I found that the more that I um more time I spent with people in the legal background I realized that it wasn't didn't really come natural for me because I had a kind of different approach of of of viewing life in general and that led me more to mediation and counseling um and so I guess that that's that's how I'm here because I became really interested in the meaning behind the way we do things and why we do things. I say the meaning behind behaviour, but I guess at the end of the day, what I learnt is to reclassify behaviour into an adaptation. So all our thoughts, feelings and actions are really a reflection of I guess our experience and it was that that I was seeing play out in the mediations rooms as a mediator for the family court that really led me to explore a little bit more about kind of the neuroscience or the child development and looking at trauma and how that impacts the way our view of the world. Now, let's talk about the trauma. So this is what we want to focus on today's episode because trauma, I think, is something where people don't realize how big of an impact it has. It's not something that's spoken about a lot. We are good at talking about mental health in general now and things like depression and anxiety, but you very rarely hear much spoken about trauma. And from your experience and research, let's start on that. So let's talk about trying to give you a quick overview from what you know about trauma and from your research in the book regarding that. Yeah, so well, I mean, in a nutshell, what I sort of concluded that is that trauma, I call it a deficit of self. And I guess what I mean by that is that it's a situation, an event, a series of events. It's less about what's happened and how it's happened, but more about the impact on the individual. And it's really shown through the sense of self. So, and I call it a lacking, a lacking sense of self, because there is what I noticed, perhaps a tendency to really focus on the deficit or what's wrong in a situation, because I guess you have a childhood experience or whatever the cause is, the experience itself generally focuses on what's wrong in a situation you know it could be you know a physical or emotional sort of abuse or I mean that's just you know generally speaking but I guess what I what I found is that whatever the cause is it tends to put us on the path towards a lacking, a deficit, to have a lens or a view of the world which has a tendency to focus on what's wrong in a situation but also what's wrong with ourselves. Because it may have been that we've been in situations where we were told what's wrong with us. or it's implied or we interpret it that way because we are young and growing up and we interpret what's happening with our caregivers or parents as a clue that there's something wrong with us and that's why we're being treated that way or that's why we're spoken to in that way or that's why we interpret it because I guess the more you go down that path the more evidence you collect that supports that view and it all points to a deficit of self which can be shown in various ways throughout our areas of life and it might be stronger in others than it is in other parts of our lives where we do have more strength. So there's that inconsistency as well. repeat sort of patterns and again going back to the idea that it's less about what happened and more about the impact on the individual and the impact on their sense of self. And how can someone break out of that? Because if you have that happen to your whole life growing up and you have this sort of, let's say, maybe might be low self-esteem because of it or whatever, how do you break out of that pattern as an adult? Because you've been conditioned with those things for a very, very long time and most people's minds will go to the negative, as you said. So how do you How do you get out of that and what are some things can people do to shift that? Because that's something that I think a lot of people don't break out of and they might get to their 50s or 40s or 60s and have patterns and things that were established from very early times. So how would someone go about changing that? And I guess the reality is that our learned experiences teach us what we have to do to survive and to unlearn that is really undoing all those, I say memories, but it's memories of what we have to do, memories of how we have to be and what we have to say. So I guess, you know, I propose a way to help heal, but I also acknowledge that where there is quite extensive trauma in the sense of you know, something's happened that's had a massive impact on the quality of this individual's life, then that can make what I'm about to propose, you know, being more strengths based with yourself, a lot harder and potentially feel like taking two steps forward and 10 steps back, because it's going against the default. And it takes practice, you know, and anytime we learn a new skill, you know, I mean, unless, you know, you're a prodigy or, you know, even just playing a musical instrument, most people have to practice. And I think, you know, thinking about it in that sense as well, which it also requires, I guess, self-acceptance that, you know, we can't be and do everything straight away and even on our own and accept that, you know, If the starting point, we're always doing the best that we can, then that can help. And it also requires forgiveness for times, I guess, that we maybe don't go down the path that we would have liked to. you know I talk about how we can help heal and I guess what jumped out for me as a practitioner where I'm being taught a lot about trauma-informed practice and how to be trauma-informed with clients and it's you know such a big thing in mental health and anyone sort of in the community sector is taught and proposes all these trauma-informed practices. And I guess I sort of thought, well, why can't we be trauma-informed with ourselves as part of the healing process? Because we go to third parties to help us, we go to therapists, we go to retreats and whatever helps the individual to heal. and they are trauma-informed with us. But I think part of the missing component is how we actually heal ourselves. There's two parts to it, reaching out externally and then how we manage internally. Can you talk about how does managing internally and talk a bit about your strengths-based approach and go over some things in regards to that and maybe elaborate that a bit for the listeners in regards to maybe some things they can put into practice or try themselves? Sure. Well, I mean, going back to my work as a mediator, what I noticed is that there will be invariably two options that could categorize all thoughts, feelings and actions that were coming up in the mediation room. And one was what's wrong. So where there's a lens that focuses on what's wrong. And then the other option was what's strong, where the lens will focus on what's strong. And I guess what I saw is that if we're in a situation and we go down the what's wrong path, as we walk down that path, we get more evidence to support that narrative. But if we go down the what's strong path, as we go down there, we get more evidence to support that narrative. And I guess what What my conclusion was from my observations was that there was a greater opportunity for growth and resilience when the what's strong path was taken and when the what's wrong path was taken, it didn't mean that there wasn't the opportunity to overcome, but perhaps the process was a lot slower and felt a lot heavier. And so I guess what I propose is that in order for us to be trauma informed with ourselves, is to go down the what's strong path, which is basically a way of practicing a strength-based practice with ourselves, of seeing the strength in ourselves rather than, I guess, going down the other path, which is, it's natural, it's normal, we all do it, you know, biologically we're programmed to go and expect the worst. Well, not to expect the worst, but our survival depended on us looking out for danger and being aware that there could be danger and having a negative bias. We remember the negative more than we remember the positive. So biologically, we're more programmed to go down the what's wrong path. Then life experience happens, which then might add to that programming. and make that path maybe the default path. And even if and I say default path, but it could be about the quality of our self-talk, you know, and our thoughts and self-criticism and self-judgment that might stop us from making decisions or moving forward or just doing something new because we're just so hard on ourselves. And so I guess what what I saw is that if we're on the what's strong lens, then that is more empowering and builds resilience. And I'm not saying we have to be on the what's strong path all the time. That's impossible. It's more about the awareness of when we did go down what's wrong, or we're going down there and we're thinking, okay, I know where I am. It's helped me in the past, but now I'm going to try and do something different. And it's okay. And so it's more about the reflective process. So to switch that self-criticism to self-reflection and growth and saying, OK, I did go down there. That's OK. Next time I'm going to try and focus on what are the benefits? How could this be done differently? Okay. So this is something where someone needs to be conscious of what their thought pattern is. And then when they have that thought, as you said, is it something where they should just tell themselves verbally or how would someone put this into practice, let's say at the start? Yeah, well, I guess it's it's going to be an individual thing, but I can offer some ideas. And as I said, I want to stress it's not about always going down the path of what's strong. That's you know, it's it's it's that awareness, as you said, it's OK. I did whether or not it's reflecting on something that happened last week or even reflecting on your own thoughts. I'm going down that path again. You know, it can be immediate. It can be past, present, even thinking about a future situation. So I guess some of ways to be aware is think about what are the quality of your thoughts, feelings, actions in relation to that situation or that topic? Would they come under the heading of what's wrong or would they come under the heading of what's strong? And so anything that sounds like judgment or criticism, you know, or even denial a stance that kind of focuses on the past as well, that's sort of focusing on what's wrong, then it is a clue. Hold on a minute, I'm going down that path. And you know, I do have some ideas. I mean, if you look at the notion of judgment, and judgment is something that really stands out to me because you know, as my role as a mediator, one of the first things I have to say to clients is I'm not here to judge. And what I noticed is that that lack of judgment, it allowed for really open and honest conversations and challenging conversations because there was no, there wasn't that fear of being judged. And then, and I guess really the only time the notion of judgment was an issue in my work because then, you know, I'd be in a situation where, you know, the person in front of me doesn't want to talk to me or is, you know, I don't have that, because I don't feel safe. So how about we use that with ourselves and we be aware of when we are judging ourselves. And I guess the gauge is to say to ourselves, am I being judgmental? Am I showing judgment or am I showing understanding? Because if I'm, if I'm not being judgmental, then I'm closer to understanding. but if I'm not showing understanding then I might be closer to showing judgment and I guess that's sort of one one tool to to keep that you know those in mind and and it's something that really emerged out of my own practice because I would keep that in my head you know I'm a mediator I'm not here to judge and and and I mean I'm a person so I'm human so sometimes I might be thinking oh I don't think that they should be doing that but you know what it's none of my business and I'm being judgmental you know all these conversations that we have in our head so how can I show understanding you know so it's about applying that um with ourselves so and maybe have a think about well what does non-judgment mean for you you know what what would I be doing thinking or saying if I'm showing myself non-judgment And that's the way to really transform that self-criticism and negative self-talk into reflection and growth. And there's learning opportunities. Now, with the reflection and growth, do you think people should write things down or what should they do? Because it's like, you know, a lot of the times you can think a lot of things, but you forget them all. Is it something where yourself, did you find yourself writing things down regarding this or what were some other things you did? Yeah, I mean, you could definitely do some journaling you know and write down and you know if that kind of medium fits with you and helps with you. I mean if you're a meditator there's also opportunity to meditate I guess using some kind of affirmation you know based on whichever word that or words or sentence that is It feels right for you. Anything that comes under what's strong, you know, it could even be strength. I guess up to the, you know, the situation, you know, there might be, and I guess just thinking about, you know, using words. So, because what I found is that we can learn from what's happening and what's not happening. So in terms of opposites, you know, and sometimes we might be in a situation where we feel hopeless, you know, and so, you know, we have, okay, well, how can I switch that? that hopelessness to hope. So kind of using well what's happening with me at the moment because generally, well not generally, but I'm saying we get to that point where we want to reflect and we want to grow and we want to do something about it because there's something something maybe that's coming up repeatedly and it's generally come up under the disguise of what's wrong. So we might feel, you know, I've got to work on this part of me because I keep getting a sense of self-doubt, I keep getting a sense of despair, I keep getting... Okay, so then what's the opposite? Because that's what we want to bring in and that's what we want to, you know, meditate and visualize that or have an affirmation. based on that or do some journaling based on how we're going to bring that hope in. And how does mental illness affect in your mediation experience when you've obviously done a lot of mediation over the years and being involved in the family court? So the family, you know, my mom had bipolar disorder one and there was never a dispute between my parents with custody or anything like that, which was good. But how does that come into it in regards to what you've mental illness with, let's say one parent or the other? And how does that play into the family situation? Yeah, well, I mean, in my role as a mediator, then, you know, where there is a, you know, disclosed and accepted mental illness, then I have to think about, well, what's the best way to manage the process so that everyone's heard, everyone feels safe and everyone gets the right amount of support that they need. And so that could involve procedural adjustments. to really allow and support that family so that because you know mental illness doesn't mean that you can't sit down and talk about you know family arrangements it's just thinking about well does it mean that we have a slower session or we have more breaks or we make sure that everyone has a legal representation so that there's that extra support. And also, I think it's about transparency. When, you know, if a client comes to me and says, hey, this is my diagnosis, then I'll have that conversation. Well, what do you need from me? What do you need from the process? How can we best support? And so if on the day of the mediation, I get a call saying, look, I'm not feeling well, then we just don't do it, you know, not on that day, you know, and yeah, so there's, that's, I mean, that's in a situation where it's a disclosed and accepted sort of diagnosis and everyone is on the same boat and sort of working together to either get the right outcome. And sometimes mediation isn't the right isn't the right place to be in because, you know, it could also disadvantage someone. who isn't as supported and is living with a mental illness. So it's also me being honest about that. And from your perspective as well, how do courts look at it or how do judges look at it where a parent has a mental illness or complex mental illness regards to safety of children or whatever the children's wants? Like you might have a situation where you have a parent with a serious mental illness and the other parent doesn't but the children or the teenagers, whoever they are, want to be with the parent with the mental illness as opposed to the person who doesn't. How does that all weigh up into courts and how do judges treat mental illness when it comes to the family from your experience? Well, I guess I should say from the start that I'm a mediator for the family court but I don't go into court. My role is to keep them out. It's more just from your opinion for this one. Yeah. So, I mean, it's always about the best interests of the children. That's what the legislation says. And there's also, I guess, an understanding that, you know, where a child can have, you know, a meaningful relationship. I mean, that's also the terminology in the legislation, but I think it's quite a good one to have a meaningful relationship with both parents. So it's about balancing up those best interests plus meaningful relationship. And then, you know, the fact that there's so much research on families and I guess where there's conflict or not conflict and impacts on the children. So I guess there's a lot of evidence in that space that can help or that judge and adversarial sort of situation would take into account. But I guess the a priority would be the needs, the best interest of the children and the fact that it is in their best interest to have a meaningful relationship with both parents, you know, eliminating, assuming there are no safety concerns then, you know, how can that best be supported? And safety concerns, I'm glad you said that because I think a lot of people don't understand there is a large, let's say for example, if a child has apparently the complex mental health issue. They might not tell anyone about the safety issues, but if that parent's manic or that parent's having an episode or whatever, it can be a very dangerous environment. But it's very hard for someone to know how dangerous it is because that's generally going to be what either someone observes or police come or whatever. So How do you think courts view, or I'm just saying, how do you think you personally probably should ask you from your experience, how do you view what's in the best interest of children and balance it up with safety as well with the parent? Because there's a bit of a conflict, whereas the kids might want to stay at their parent, but if their parent goes full-blown manic, for example, and there's a high risk for two weeks where they could be doing a whole bunch of things that would put those kids in danger, there's a big balance. And I don't really hear this talk spoken about too much. So what's your opinion on that just in general? And I think ideally, if the parents have a good working relationship as parents, then normally there would be a plan. So there would have been a discussion, you know, whether or not it's through mediation or just between themselves around what to do if X, Y, Z happens. You know, if I'm having an episode, I don't feel well, then you know, this is the agreement. I know, I guess, look, part of that is also balancing the, whether or not, balancing the role of the children. Because, you know, you've got young kids with one of their parents or caregivers and they start to notice things are starting to change in that time, then maybe, I guess, you want everyone to be safe. But then at the end of the day, I think those children might have an adult responsibility in terms of keeping an eye out on what's happening with their parents, because they will. Like most, you know, even if the children are kept out of the adult conversations, you know, I think most kids would have a sense of what's happening. And I mean, I don't know, I can't speak for most kids, you know, if you're living with a parent with a mental illness, I mean what I don't know. Can I ask you? Sure. Could you tell what was happening or if things were changing in your situation? You could but you would have no real recourse because the current situation is basically if the parent doesn't want to go voluntary, you're pretty much stuffed until they do something so outrageous until that forces a CAT team or the police or the ambulance to get involved. there's a dangerous period for, you know, I'm just speaking about my experience for a couple of weeks with someone who's got bipolar might be really manic and put you in a lot of dangerous situations. And I don't know what the statistics are around when one partner's got a mental health issue and the other person doesn't, but I'd say there'd be more, a lot of single parents or a lot of single parent families in this sort of situation. So that's probably more where I was coming from with that, just in regards to getting your expert opinion on that from what you've seen, you might've seen some of these situations over the years. Because I guess what I was thinking is that kids are quite aware. I mean, you know. Well, I know. Yeah, they're not. They're not. Absolutely. That's what I was assuming, but I can't assume because it's not my experience. But I guess that most children would have an idea that something's happening. So some might be, I'm going to ring dad, I'm going to ring mom, I'm going to ring granny, whoever the case may be, you know, to then get that extra support but then the problem is you're giving an adult responsibility to a child. Look I don't know what the answer is because if that is going to facilitate and help those kids to then spend time with both parents when they can and safely, I don't know. And this is just in setting aside court orders because there might be, if it goes through a court process then there'll be you know it would be quite specific about what happens and when and who and you know so um and and and even if there are court orders you know we're all human things happen that don't follow the orders and you just go you know and you just have to I guess ensure that the the children are safe but um you know I guess at what cost do you do those kids have to then you know have have a greater level of responsibility. And then as adults have to then deal with, well, this is what happened. And now how do I sort of resolve that internally? Cool. I was going to ask you now as well, being a media, what makes for a good mediation? Like, you know, something I don't think people hear the word mediator and mediation. I think they know what's involved with it, but from your experience, what makes for a good mediation and what are some things that people should know around it? Well, I guess, I mean, look, my role is just to facilitate a conversation. So if... what makes for a good mediation? Which is not easy because I know a lot of people probably, I work with someone who's in a lot of mediations all the time either as a defender or whatever he's doing. He enjoys that thing because he likes having a bit of conflict and stuff. So I'm just trying to get it from your perspective in regards to, you would have seen a lot of different scenarios over the years. So what are some things should people know about it? Well, I think if anyone's preparing for a mediate or going into mediation, it's quite important and helpful to do a lot of preparation. So, and when I say preparation, it's preparation in terms of what your goals are, what you want, what you don't want, what you can live with and also what your legal position is because that can help because when there's a difference between knowing your legal, having good legal advice and going into a mediation and not having that legal advice. I think for any sort of industry because then you know if there's no agreement and it goes to court then I'll get X, Y, Z. But, you know, you could get a better outcome in mediation. That's agreed. So preparation and legal advice of things. And also knowing that there's a difference between mediation and the traditional sort of legal system in that it's, I mean, at least the way that I, you know, my industry, it's not evidence-based. So it's not about showing I did this, she did this. I'm entitled to this. It's more about two people coming together and reaching an agreement on their own rather than someone telling them what they have to do. And it's not for everyone in all situations and part of my role is also to assess suitability. Should these people be in a mediation room or are they going to be better supported even having solicitors or legal or whatever the case may be? Because really, you know, if you think about, just thinking about, you know, good mediation, well, is it a good mediation because everyone's agreeable and they come, you know, they make an agreement, everything, and they go home happy. But, I mean, if they were that agreeable, maybe they wouldn't have come into the first place. So that's where I think that sort of preparation And also, you know, I might say I want to do this or I want this, but I really don't know what that's based on or I don't know if it's doable or I haven't, you know, so really putting a thought into the mechanics of what's being proposed or what's being thought. And can you also now tell us about your book? How did you come about that and what was the process like behind writing it and where can people get it? Okay. Well, It's quite a long story, but I'll make it brief. So I wrote a book and it was a story. It was a story about this woman and her challenges through life. And the last chapter was a self-help chapter based on the main character. And I realized through, you know, advice from the industry, from writing industry, I had to have one or the other, fiction or non-fiction. So I turned the last chapter into one whole book. And it's essentially on a lot of the things that we've spoken about, my observations as a mediator around how people manage adversity, the trends I noticed, and the tendencies that would lean to people overcoming and succeeding through that adversity, or trends that I also noticed in potentially not overcoming and being overcome by adversity. And then I go on to propose a strengths-based tool for self-reflection, which really classifies our thoughts, feelings, and actions as coming under what's wrong and what's strong. And that's really how the book evolved. But it's really all based on my observations as a mediator, my observations of myself and others on a managing adversity as well as some of the self-guided study that I did in child development neuroscience and trauma. And let's talk about actually, I don't think we talked about at the start was the tendencies for someone to deal with it or not. What were some of those? So well, I guess what I noticed is that just, you know, talking about the what's wrong and what's wrong idea is that if there was more of a tendency to look at what was wrong in a situation, the criticism, the judgment, and even focusing on past situations, denial of the current situation, and even, you know, maybe punishing, you know, punishing self or punishing others. And that all comes under what's wrong. I guess I noticed that when people presented under that sort of lens, it was harder to overcome because even past experiences that led to that hurt, that led to that criticism and judgment and feelings of punishment or wanting to punish, they things that happened in the past that they really kept them kept in their future in their present so they couldn't it limited moving forward as well so so anything under that what's wrong umbrella you know could sort of have a tendency to limit ability to overcome or slow it down whereas where there was a focus on what's strong which looks at understanding you know respect a focus on the present or future and forgiveness, acceptance, then there seem to be much more obvious, I guess, resilience and overcoming hurdles. Would you label it a victim mindset than Rosemary for those people? I know we hear this term a bit and I think it's a big issue because we sort of, it might sound bad, but we sort of do enable it a little bit because I think as a society, we've got a lot more empathy now. We tend to listen a lot more rather than just saying, you know, oh, that happened in the past, move on, which was a pretty typical old school sort of thing to say, whereas now I think we're a bit more understanding and we will listen to people. But from what you said, that mindset with people who did have that, they would have that. Yeah. And that is another sort of, I call it polarity, where you're either on the path to victimhood or the victim stance or empowering, empowerment. That's a good point. But do you think now that's sort of where we're going? Because I think victimhood seems to be something where we sort of, I'm not saying enable a bit, but it seems to be a lot of people can get a lot of attention by playing that role. Because I think we do try and be a bit more understanding, but by being a bit more understanding, we sort of enable people to play into that mindset or put out there a lot of stuff about that. And I guess that's where language is really important. And, you know, even, you know, I talk about what's wrong and what's strong. There are different ways to describe the same situation because you can look at what's wrong in a situation and you can also highlight what's strong in a situation. So I guess it really highlights the importance of language, you know, and you know, I work in a strength space and try to follow the strength space approach and it is a very different response when someone's sitting in front of you and you, you know, highlight the fact that how much they've overcome and what they've achieved and that they're, you know, passionate about something and persistent and have shown strength rather than having someone in front of you and you say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that happened. How did you do that? How are you still standing? You know, there's just you see it in the body language and the expression in the way that they respond and engage. And so, you know, and I guess the point is, we often talk to ourselves in that, you know, what's wrong mode. And so this is about pushing to flip the quality of our thoughts or at least be aware of the quality of our thoughts as they're happening or even after because it's about what's learned, what we can learn from it. I think at the moment, I like that saying, what's wrong, what's strong. I think it's a really good thing that people can remember. with it. So is this something that you mentioned before that in your professional work, you apply it to yourself, but is it something that over the years, like early on, you developed yourself? Was it something that you came to via your findings or was it something you, doing your work, you've sort of reiterated to maybe something you thought before? Yeah, well, I mean, the idea of what's wrong and what's strong comes under, you know, principles in strength-based practice. And I guess what, for me, you know, just listening to stories, you know, that would come, you know, through mediation, and even through just people, you know, in everyday life. It just, I guess I was really aware of the differences, the differences in the approaches, and then the difference in the outcomes, because then you see the outcomes. And I guess that's why, and I have, I'm quite a bit of a visual person. So, you know, write down, you know, I go to lots of lectures and things and write down and draw things. And so, I mean, in my book, I've got it all set up. I call it the Scales of Self-Reflection. They're a series of, you know, what's wrong, what's wrong, judgment, understanding, criticism, respect. There's a whole, you know, victim is one of them, victimhood. So, and that's really just the result of me sort of drawing in boxes and arrows you know, what I was hearing at, you know, many lectures and things that I went to and even listening to audio books. And I kind of thought, oh, hold on. These are the tendencies that I'm hearing. And then I started just using them for myself in preparation for work in, you know, preparing for a case or thinking, okay, this person's on this side. How can we flip the process a bit, you know, to show them a bit of their strengths? And even just for my own personal life, I'll think, oh, OK, I was going down the what's wrong path. That's OK. Let's steer towards, you know, what have I learned and what are my strengths there? That's great. And in regards to, this is not related, but in regards to the mental health movement at the moment, I ask this question to a lot of people. Mental health is obviously something that we hear a lot about now. It tends to focus on a couple of areas, but where do you think it needs to move towards just from your general perspective and opinion? Where do you think mental health awareness or how do you see it improving or what do you think needs to be done more around this area? I think, look, I think society as a whole could benefit from being trauma-informed full stop, you know, whether or not it's organisations, hospitals, workplaces, to really be open and understanding of the fact that, you know, more people than we, I guess, acknowledge or think carry unresolved trauma with them. The ones that maybe reach out to mental health practitioners, I guess, I'm imagining, there's probably statistics on it, but I'm just imagining that it's only a small amount of the population that do reach out for help. So I guess I would say not yet mental and it's a helping profession and so and helping people can feel good because you know you can see someone's and I think sometimes that can take over the quality of the care. But I would also say to listeners out there, if they don't feel confident in the mental health practitioner that they're with, or they don't feel safe, they don't feel supported, they don't feel that that person gets them and they've given it a go, maybe they're just not for you. I think, I mean, I know that doesn't really answer your question because I'm kind of saying, you know, if you're reaching out for help and it's not as helpful as you would imagine, then maybe it's just not the right fit. Or maybe it's showing you something, but just to, I guess, be open. And to mental health practitioners, I think just that trauma-informed, strengths-based approach with their clients and also with themselves. And what would you say to the cynical type of person? Because I agree with you. I think most, I'd say most people's, where they are in life or their behaviors is based on some sort of trauma. If it's a negative thing, I'd say all of it. So what would you say to the cynical sort of person? Because I posted a bit of content on this before and generally it's that 40 to 50 year old person who's a male and being a stereotyping, but we'll say, you know, just get over it. Bad things happen to everyone. Life moves on. or something like that, and they'll take their time out of their day to write a negative thing like that. So what would you say to that sort of cynical person or to a person who just believes bad things happens to everyone, you just need to move on? What would you say to that sort of person? Yeah. Well, I guess if we look at the fact that everything we do, all our thoughts, feelings and actions are really adaptations, the way that we have learned to adapt our thoughts, feelings and behaviors according to our experience, then that individual's experience has really led them to have that view. So, I mean, I know that doesn't really solve it, but if we see behavior as a clue, then for that, then that's a clue to, I guess, the quality of, I don't know, not the quality, that's the wrong word, but, you know, that there was something about their experience. that led them to have that view. So how can they unlearn that? Well, I guess is part of it for us to accept that that's where they're at as well? Or is it about education? You know, because I guess and I know what you mean that like, there's a lot of people in that category. And I mean, that's I don't want to classify people or that's, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I guess it's lack of awareness, because that's what their experience was. But I generally think it's the people who need the help the most. So someone who takes their time out of their day to write something negative or maybe who has that mindset off that and just instantly dismisses. They're probably the most guarded people and the ones who protect themselves the most who probably need the help the most is the sense I normally get. Yeah. And you're probably right because And I guess we might be speaking to people who have already taken that first step and who already acknowledge and understand the importance, the significance and the help. So I guess it's about then now, I guess you've got me thinking now about being, how can we be as a society, mental health friendly to everyone? and without sort of saying well you need it more because of this or you need it less because of this but just and maybe the focus is on well-being rather than you know I mean I've heard that rather than talk about mental health and physical health it's just about overall well-being how can we support the well-being of society and that includes mental health. Yeah, it's multifaceted, whether it be eating well, community, purpose, these sorts of things which are flying together. But I was going to say, Rosemary, where can people find out more about you? And if they want to read more about you or buy your book, where can they go? Okay. Well, probably the best place would be my website. I've also got lots of social media, Facebook and Instagram. And my book will be out later on in the next 2 months or so. But all the information will be on my website, rosemarygattuso.com.au and the Instagram and Facebook and even LinkedIn if you're on there. Awesome. I'll put all the links into the show notes and I'll link that as well. So thank you very much for your time today, Rosemary. I appreciate it. Great. Thanks for having me. Thanks. So there you have it, Rosemary Gattuso. You can head to rosemarygattuso.com.au and big thank you to Rosemary for her time and for her courage for coming on and sharing her story and sharing her insights and reaching out to me as well, which you can do as well via the livedexperiencepodcast.com. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you did, please make sure you leave a rating and review. Until next episode, I hope you have a great week.