Growing up with a mother who has Shizophrenia in the USA? Interview with listener, Missy Apple Knotts

Missy Apple: 0:03

One six, get this view sort of like, yeah, thanks. I got this last summer. Yeah, I love my hat. I have assortment of hats that I wear.

Joel Kleber: 0:18

Awesome. So Missy, thanks for reaching out to me anyway. So, um, maybe just wanna start with introducing yourself and what made you decide to share your story to?

Missy Apple: 0:28

Sure, ya know, my name is Lucy Apple mots. And I am the youngest of 10 have five brothers and four sisters. And my mom was diagnosed with bipolar and about primarily schizophrenia, long before I was born. And then yeah, so it was a challenge growing up, you know, felt very alone. And, as I've coped with, you know, just everything that came along with being raised in this kind of a family with these challenges, you know, I've had a lot of hurdles I've had to overcome, and I, you know, listen to several podcasts out there. And I was so grateful for the folks out there that had another parent, you know, co parents that was healthy and helped and all of that, and that was not my experience, we had to leave very fearful of my father and, and had to dodge that. So it's, there's just a lot been a lot to overcome. And as I've gotten older, I have just this desire to reach back and help the children because they're forgotten, I was forgotten, you know, the children who have parents that have these struggles. And so that's always been on my heart to do that. And I'm writing a book and in my research, I, you know, happen upon your podcasts, and there just aren't a lot of resources out there. And so as I was listening to your various guests that you had, it was just like, Ah, I found my people, you know, it's a club nobody wants to be a part of, but I just resonated so much. And then that's what led me to reach out to you

Joel Kleber: 2:11

know, thanks, busy, and thanks for sharing. And yeah, that must have been very, very tough. Like, you know, so we'll talk more about that today. But yeah, having 10 being in a family of 10 kids alone, in normal circumstances with both parents and stuff would be would be full on bit. Um, how did you and your mom manage? Because having bipolar sort of my mom had two kids, and it was a struggle at times, then I can't imagine having, you know, being a part of 10. With that. So how was that all?

Missy Apple: 2:38

Well, you know, by the time I came along, she was well into struggling with her illness. I've heard you speak about your mom. And, and what I experienced, like, my mom was way over medicated and shock treatments, you know, the whole all the things, and she became very reliant on medication. And she just did you know, she, she just said, Yes, and took the medication, and it was supposed to help, and it wouldn't help. And then there's the side effects, and, you know, all the things and basically, you know, she, she did the best that she could. And I hear my older siblings talk about the mom before there was an event that was like a crash in her life. And prior to that, I think at that time when that happened, and I believe it was either the late 50s or early 60s, that that happened for her. But prior to that she was this great. I mean, very involved. She's a, she was a country western singer. And she would play the mandolin. And I have her guitar sitting right here next to me, as you play the harmonica, and she makes these great meals and made the kids clothes and bathe them, but that's a mom I never knew. So by the time I come along, she's in bed, that's 24/7 Basically, she was in bed, she would get up, you know, around four o'clock every day, maybe 435 40, you know, in there before my dad would get home, and she would try to put dinner together. You know, and it was struggle. It was very hard. It was very hard. So but I don't have any memories of her caring for me at all. So it was it was tough.

Joel Kleber: 4:29

And this was in the 60s Was it? Definitely it was 70s Oh, when was it?

Missy Apple: 4:34

So that I was I was born in the late 60s. So she she had been sick for I think about like 10 years before I arrived on the scene.

Joel Kleber: 4:47

And I can imagine back then obviously mental health and mental illness wouldn't would have just been completely under the table whereas now that now gets mentioned a bit. Right but But in regards to back that I can imagine just would not have been mentioned at all. So there was literally no Support for you whatsoever. It all was a

Missy Apple: 5:02

no, no. I mean, we were very involved in the church, but even the church, they they knew that the way my mom's schizophrenia sort of manifested her in with mom was, she was a devout Christian. And she knew that Bible just like the back of her hand, and the voices that she heard came to her and she thought it was God, you know, telling her to do these things that were right. And so and, you know, for a little kid, that was really scary, because they were there some crazy stories, I may or may not put them in my book, but and, you know, you're trying to reason what you're trying to talk with, or you try to help her. And I think one of the worst parts for her is that she, she, there was a part of her that knew, you know, she would have these moments, or she would come and she knew what she was doing was just not right. And she would, you know, fight that there'd be such torment, you know, on her face. And that that was really hard to see that struggle when she would like she would come to and she would know, but she couldn't bear like disappointing God. And so she had to follow through with what God was telling her to do. Of course, it was it was her eldest. But so it was, it was, it was tough for her. And by the way, you know, when she was good, and that was something that I wanted to convey on. This is like, when she had her moment of, you know, sanity. She was She was beautiful. She had this big bright smile. She had this amazing voice. She was smart. She was funny, she was a stay at home mom, but again, you know, I didn't have anywhere near like, a normal I think Mom experience that most people have. So it was she did the best she could she she really did. It was just a really, really difficult set of circumstances for us all.

Joel Kleber: 7:12

With your camera that misses it just playing up a little bit, just with your camera, there's been a life or something or just a unit or you're in a really light filled room. Perfect. That's a yeah, now can see you better. That's why but Okay, nice. Thanks. So I was just watching out. But um, yeah, yeah, I can relate to what you just said, then like, my mom was very religious, too. I don't think she would have been maybe as religious as your mom. But she's, same thing happened as well. Like, you know, God told me this. So God told me that. Yeah. And as you said, you're a young kid, and you just don't know, like your parents, they're supposed to guide you. And then I'm not a religious person now. But, um, how did you work it out in your head as it as a younger person, because obviously, you rely on your parents, you just trust them. So whatever they say you trust them. And you might not be at a stage yet where you can sort of go well, that's the honest talking, you'd up before even become aware of that. So how'd you go is sort of separating that sort of fact or fiction? As a younger person?

Missy Apple: 7:59

Yeah, that was a journey. And I did have the benefit of my older siblings. So I, you know, like I divide them up into the top five and the bottom five. So I, you know, I have a niece from number two in their families. My sister and she has a daughter were the same age. So you know, most of the top five were out of the home. But I would watch right, I was really good at hiding. And I was really good at observing right now. It's my superpower, right? I can really read a room, I'm in my sales executive, right? I can really read the person sitting across from me. So I became very good at that. And I would take cues from them. Of course, I went through phases myself, where I was really angry when I was older at my mom. There were other phases. When I was younger, I was very protective of her. Like I in my mind, and my little mind, I think I was like, No, I have a good mom. She's a good mom. And I remember my older siblings would roll their eyes or they would, you know, they wouldn't want to be around for long. And honestly, it was every man for themselves, because we're trying to dodge my father, and then trying to just not do anything that would set mom off, you know, get on her nerves, but don't get on mom's nerves. So that was the thing. So I think I really read, read the room read my siblings. And I like I knew something wasn't right. I wasn't right. And I have a memory of my one little friend that lived next door and she came over and my mom's thing was, God would God would tell her to make sure everybody was saved, right. So she gave him and it was mortifying to me because he or she is to my my friend saying, aren't you? Do you know Jesus? You You know, let's pray. And she literally had my friends nail it the couch. And I'm mortified, you know, and that was the last time I ever brought a friend over. And so we really, we pretty much isolated. Because you just don't want people to have a front row seat to that. And it was, you know, a lot of other things as well. So, yeah, you just kind of figured it out with sort of survival skills, I think that just sort of evolved to don't make Dad mad, and don't set mom off and just kind of tried to fly under the radar.

Joel Kleber: 10:36

Did your older siblings, the ones, the five, who was at 100, they help you manage it all? Did they? Did they give you some advice? Or how did that sort of work?

Missy Apple: 10:43

No, nobody talks, you know, nobody talks about it. And everybody was trying to figure out, I think, for a long time exactly what was wrong. And then she had this diagnosis of schizophrenia. I never knew about it. In fact, I didn't know that that was the exact diagnosis until I was a freshman in college. And, and then I did my own research. And, you know, and figured out that's what it was. You know, later on in mom's life, I actually helped her find another doctor. And they had her reevaluated. This was after I have three boys. And this was after I had my my liberal a little bit, you know, took her back had her evaluated again, yeah, and of course, it comes back as the same thing. But no, we didn't really talk about it. And until later, we had a tragedy where one of my oldest nephew passed unexpectedly, his father is number one in the family. And he brought us all together through that grieving process that he had gone through grieving his son, and he was actually a counselor himself, that took, you know, what he would give back to people who are grieving to a whole nother level through his own personal experience. And when there was an incident where he brought us all together. And he said, we were sitting in a steak and shake in Indianapolis. And he said, We, we've got to start talking, we've got to start talking, or it's going to eat us all up. We've got to share stories. And I remember I broke down sobbing, to my brother, Scott is number nine, you know, I just collapsed in tears. And the others were all just like crying, but then that, that opened it up, and we each started sharing stories, of course, the top five have horrible guilt over, you know, leaving the boss five. And they have said, we thought it would get better. You know, and you know, it didn't. And so I've got, you know, still to this day, it's like one of my, my fears is being abandoned being left that I have to fight against. And because I would have a sibling that would actually care for me. And I'd become dependent. Well, they would move, you know, they would graduate high school, and they would leave, and then the next one, and then they leave. So you know, that's super suck. So it becomes but then, you know, I learned early that, like, I had to take care of myself, and I did you know, and there's some good and good and bad with that.

Joel Kleber: 13:25

Growing up, were you told, did you notice Did you did you like look into the owner. So I knew growing up, my mom had bipolar, but it really didn't want to know about it. Like I knew that was that was what she had. But I never really went into understanding it or sort of like really trying to understand I just knew right, you know, she get on well, she go to hospitals, shock treatment, be away for three months and come back. So when you're going up, did you do much research about it? Or how did you or was it just something new? She's got this and then that's it. And that's the way she's going to act? And I'm going to try and work around her and awesome stuff.

Missy Apple: 13:55

Yeah, that was basically I didn't know and so, you know, freshman in college, that's what she had. I knew that she wasn't right. You know, and, and in high school, I knew she had mental illness. I didn't know exactly what it was, you know, back then, I think that I saw like schizophrenia was a multiple personality disorder. I think that was that's what was often be confused. I didn't No one ever sat me down. No one ever said it was always no pray for Mom, don't upset, don't upset or now I would say like to I've got a few good memories. When I was in high school of when she was with it. Like, you know, then she would ask me what do you want for breakfast? And that was like what? And I never once I asked her for a hamburger or for breakfast, and she laughed and she made me a hamburger. And, you know, that's a great memory that I have. And you know, and there's a couple of other ones where she would I would I ran track and I would go and practice running and she would just walk Walk with me and, and I remember driving there and, and her being happy and and that was a great day, everything and then all of a sudden, you know it could turn on a dime. And then all of a sudden, the voices are back and off we go again. I have fond memories of her being gone when I was really young, much she would just not be there. So I didn't notice it as much. And she wasn't there because she was institutionalized. I guess she was in the mental hospital. And I didn't realize it because she just, it's not like we had the day to day structure. She was always in bed, she was always back. And so when she was gone, like it not a whole lot changed for me. So

Joel Kleber: 15:48

now did you have to go to the mental hospital to visit? Or? Or how did that work? When you're younger?

Missy Apple: 15:53

I have one very, very vague memory of being there with her. And they would give them these crafts to do and she would make I remember her making this mosaic like a trivet, right that you put up a hot pot on. And she also made a great big table that that must have been when she was in there for much longer. But it was all these little mosaics that they would pile in. And I have a very vague memory of that. But it's funny because whenever I see a mosaic trivet like that turns my stomach, I automatically like my body remembers. And I get just like, I can't even look at him. And it's it's a trigger for me. But I I don't think that I went very often. But I was pretty young. And when I got into I think middle school high school. She I don't remember ever being in a hospital then she was home.

Joel Kleber: 16:59

That's a good that's a good thing. But with with the What about the treatments back then for you mentioned medication before an electric shock treatment? I think I've changed now to sec BCT. But it's electric shock treatment. But um, yeah, what was your experience with like with that could be very confronting, especially if someone said AC T or electric shock treatment to see them afterwards. So was it explained to you first of all, you sort of involved in it or in the consultation off at all?

Missy Apple: 17:24

No, not at all that the the, the big story from their family is like one I think it was the first time she had had it done. And I wasn't even on this planet yet. And she came home and they lined all my siblings up. And she was trying to remember their names. And as the eldest who had cared, you know how there's these amazing stories of my older siblings, they basically had to take turns going to school, because they cared for all the others, and had to watch my mom and protect my mom and keep her in the house and all these things and but they tell the story of having to, you know, stand up there and being excited, like, Come on mom, you can get it, you can get it, you can get it and she would finally find the name. And, and yeah, so that's the only real memory and it's through my siblings telling the story because I was not born yet. And so she's I know, she had had gone several times, I don't know how many times. I know her memory was very, he was very bright she was she was very smart. But that took a toll on her. I know. And our our we had a very small home, we were very poor. And we had to the left of the kitchen sink, there was a cabinet on the second shelf, there must have been 20 or 30 different bottles with her name, and she would take handfuls every day. And then I remember there was one in particular was a liquid and that was the one that would just knock her out. So when it was bad, she'd just be you know, and that brought on a lot of anxiety because she would often get up in the middle of the night and go and you know, open that cabinet door to hear that creek and then you just like, Oh no, here we go. And behold, you know, and she was doing what she thought, you know, first time sense of relief. So it was hard. It's hard for her

Joel Kleber: 19:43

and many, many other families or the school or some of these other people know about your situation to sort of help you guys or Was anyone else involved and not really?

Missy Apple: 19:52

No, not really I you know, and I was talking to my husband you know about some of these men Marie's in the car earlier today, and I was thinking, you know, I don't know how the school didn't do something at because you know, at a very young age, I, there was nobody to do laundry, right? So I'm trying to find clothes and I'm like in kindergarten, maybe first grade, I'm trying to find clothing to wear. And there's nothing clean, and I'm having to pull clothes out of a dirty hamper that I never should have been wearing. And I know or something that was way too small or something way too big for me. And I'm I don't know, why this school, I suppose it was just a different time where you just didn't talk about it, you know, especially mental illness. Or perhaps, maybe they had contacted, you know, and I just didn't know about it. And they, I don't know if there were ever any conversations, not to my knowledge. There was never anyone to come in, I have heard stories that there were some family members that wanted to split us up. And my dad wouldn't allow it. He kept us all together. You know, and to this day, the 10 of us are so tight, we adore each other, we love each other, we protect each other. And we are each other's biggest advocates, they're the most generous, loving people on this planet. And I've under as I get older, I understand that's not the norm in many families. But for the 10 of us, I think because of what we all survived together, we are just as tight as can be. Now.

Joel Kleber: 21:48

That's great to hear. And he's mentioned some before about being angry towards your mum, which is something that I can relate to, because I was for a very long time, until up until before she passed. So your ex is just explain why you had that anger just for people to understand it from your perspective, or from a kid's perspective with the parent.

Missy Apple: 22:08

Yeah, um, you know, I think I had a lot of anger early on, and it was, a lot of it was immaturity. We know when you get older, and you see how other families operate and live, and you're just like, why? What is up, you know, why can't you be okay, we would have moments, you know, and sometimes it might be nine months of pretty normal, but then it would quickly change, or you might just have some ups and downs, maybe you'd have a good week, and then, you know, then she'd be back in bed or gone. But I think, you know, I was I was angry, I would often for a long time, I would try to talk her out of it, I would try to reason with her, I would try to explain, I tried to understand, and she there was just nothing I said could help. And you know, a part of it, I think now was a protective mechanism that I had that I activated, like, I can't depend on you, every time I would depend on her or even my father, I would be let down. You know and for. And I hate saying this because I love my siblings so much. But their periods of time when I was younger, I would depend on them. And then they'd be gone. And they were doing what they needed to do, they were going to college or going getting out. Everybody just wanted to get out. So I don't hold any ill will towards them. But I think a part of it was I am I am not going to try anymore. And you're I resented her, you know, I resented the illness, I didn't understand the illness. Now I have so much empathy and compassion for her. And for what she, she survived. You know, and I helped her quite a bit later in, in her years she passed in onine. So I think it was, you know, just resenting what I didn't have. And you know, and I had a counselor telling me once as I go through as as you have children, as you hit other different milestones in your life, you're going to have to come back and deal with certain aspects of this. You know, I'm I, when I was the age of what she was when she had me or you know, when I had my first son when I had my first baby that was that wrecked me because I'm you know, especially towards my father and like how in the world could you ever do your you know, your own child? So it was really I haven't come along They have matured I understanding what it was what she was dealing with, you know, all the children the pressure, the immense pressure, she had to felt. She's okay, she was mighty for what she survived.

Joel Kleber: 25:16

Thanks for saying that Missy. And I can completely agree with you. And I'm glad you you articulated it far better than what I could but you said, Yeah, you're getting any you get that sense of maturity, once you get a bit more more mature and you can step out and see that foresight, you have a bit more life experience and you can have a bit more empathy. You just don't have that as a younger person. Right? Right. As you said, you get really angry, you're mad at the person like you know why you go especially like, for me, the worst was when we used to go to you go to a mate test, and you see a stable family and the parents are gonna jobs and stuff like that, like, why do we have that he is that's the way your mind goes as a kid you get real jealous and stuff. And that anger comes and it's hard to let go. But you said it. You said it brilliantly about that. The foresight and you once you have that ability to empathize with it from their position, you know, mom's trying to raise 10 kids with this mental illness, but she can't control like, it's not her fault at all. You're just all slips away the anger and and all the and you become standing away more caring, but it's something I wish I got at a younger age. But yeah, yeah, but you sort of almost needed someone to sit you down at a younger age Museum. Sure, you probably could have got that foresight, if someone just sat you down, and sort of explained that to you really could Ray able to help limit?

Missy Apple: 26:22

Oh, it would have been amazing, like I hear, you know, as I've been listening to some of these folks that have been guests, and they said, Well, I had this resource or that resource. And somebody had mentioned, like, there were resources right down the street, and she didn't even know. And I'm like, Ah, wouldn't that have been amazing. And someone could have, you know, we've could have been tagged or flagged somehow either the school or through moms or doctors and said, let's get some out for these kids and sit down and say, Okay, this is what's going on. This is the brain this is, you know, the chemicals that are out of whack and explain it, you know, age appropriate, oh, that just would have lifted so much. And, you know, is it my fault, did I make mum nervous that I set her off again, you know, all the guilts and, and everything that you deal with, because you're a kid, you know, you don't, it's you don't have the capacity to fully understand and to have had somebody to come in or someone to come in and do laundry, or food. You know, tutoring tutoring would have been amazing, you know, because I struggled so much through school. You know, I was very, I had horrible self esteem, just horrible, and was very, you know, the loan kid made fun of bullied because, you know, the clothes, and I'm sure, you know, dirty clothes. And that was dirt. You know, just, I didn't have the basics at that young age. And that's, that's where my heart is. Now, you know, that's the book that I'm writing. Now. That's true, that reach back to go back. And as so many of us, I think that have gone through really difficult, difficult set of circumstances, I think the way that we can heal ourselves and kind of redeem the situation, right is reaching back and helping others that because you know, they're out there that are going through this and to be able to say, You know what, there's all kinds of help you got this, and offer resources and to be able to say, you know, you're not a victim. And that, that is one thing. That was a just a watershed moment in my life was the day I realized I was not a victim of my circumstances, or what I was born into. And that I could choose a rat, it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be hard, because I didn't know a lot of stuff. And I had to figure that out. But I was so determined, you know. And in I know, there's, there's more, there's more to unpack, and more to learn and more to let go of. But I always think that there's a reason for everything. And if my reason is to reach back and help others, there's no greater joy than to provide hope and relief to another, you know, a team, you know, that's kind of going through this, you know, still a lot of people, like you have said that many times and we'll talk about depression and anxiety and mental health challenges, but then get into the that heavy mental illness and what that looks like the treatments and the families and all of that, like no one's doing that.

Joel Kleber: 29:37

Yeah, they aren't. And that's it. It's really prevalent. Missy, as you would know, and you'd look at the statistics like Barcelona stone statistics on Australia, there's around tubist I think about 2% globally of people have Bipolar, right? And most of those people are going to have families so you're gonna have a large amount of people who have been affected by it, but it's not something that we hear a lot like in America I presume. Mental mental health has now been spoken about a bit and, and in Australia's Same thing, but we just don't go beyond the depression and anxiety. People just think that right? Like, even though, let's say, I'm not sure like it's celebrity by CB like Kanye West sweats got bipolar disorder. And you don't really hear that mentioned in regards to what's going on at the moment, right. So it's something where there's still a complete lack of understanding. But it's annoying because there's people in positions of power, who are decision makers, or who are well known and celebrity who just keep it under the rug. And a great example in Australia was our federal health minister, the government just got acid. But he released he had a bipolar mother who was really full on and like, done a lot of horrible things to him. And it wasn't and he was the federal health minister, and for a long, long time. And it wasn't till I think he was, I think was like three or four years ago. And he released the story nationally about it. And he's like, in his 50s, it's like, maybe you had this position, you've been in politics for like, 20 years, or whatever you've been in. But he's a doctor and lots of stuff. And you've only started to tell people now like, it's just like, you could help people, as you said about what you're with your book. And what you want to do is you want to reach back and help. But I sort of I find it really frustrating when I hear about people who have similar stories to us who can actually have a platform who just don't say anything about it. Yeah. And it's very, very frustrating, because it can really help a lot and especially where it can help is with the funding. So at the in Australia, I don't know what America is like when Australia we have a couple of big brand mental health brands right there called Beyond Blue and one's black dog Institute and stuff like that. And it's all about the just depression and anxiety. And that's it. There's nothing about bipolar, specifically schizophrenia, specifically, or young carers, we call them which are basically kids who have parents with mental illness. So we have a couple of organizations that I know about, I'm really passionate about over here in support. But what's the like in America? 411, your researcher from what you know, online, when you're researching for your book in regards to support that's available? For let's say, a Missy, who would be going up in today's age? What would what what's there that's available?

Missy Apple: 31:57

Yeah. So I like where I've raised my kids is in a place called Fishers Indiana. And their mayor, was he I don't know why he was so passionate about oh, I do remember, he went on a ride along with police officers. And he was asking, what's the most common call, and the most common cause that they had in this area was for a mental health crisis of some sort. So they're having a call 911. So it's a significant, there's an event. And he started doing research and saw like the statistics, and I'm not sure I can't speak to exactly what they were measuring. But I know that he was alarmed. But what he found and so he got the schools very involved, and they put like a mental health counselor, but over all of the schools, not just your typical like counselor that sits in the school, but she her objective was to help, like, identify kids that were at risk. And this is more for the kids, not the parents, but put in some really, really cool programs to help identify the kids and talk. Now, again, if there's still the narrative as a lot around depression, and anxiety, there's just to my knowledge, and there might be my you know, my kids are older now out of high school, so maybe they've evolved some, but there's just still not a lot of, you know, identifying the kids that have maybe something beyond that. From that, again, I'm I'm speculating for my own experience, am I had a child who struggled. And so I was right in the middle of all of this to find resources and alternatives. And, you know, we changed schools, and that was a game changer for him. But the, you know, to get in, you know, I have ideas, you know, to identify some, some of these kids, and then, you know, dig digging in a little deeper to find out if there's an issue a level up, right, if there's an addiction issue with the parents, or a mental health issue with the parent, and then try to figure out how to come along and, again, support that the children, that's where my heart is. So it's, you know, I don't I haven't I don't have a good answer for it. I don't know of anything that I've come across, you know, even when I'm looking to like, surely we've got podcasts or something that, again, are helping the children of the parents that are struggling, and I can't find anything in the United States, and maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. But, you know, I found you and I found, you know, one in the UK and there's this, just it's not a lot from what i've what I've been able to find.

Joel Kleber: 34:58

Yeah, there's not an there reason why the reason why I think it's, it's, it is because I don't know what would help you or actually I asked your opinion on this first is actually, what do you think would have helped you? So what would have been something that would have been tangible, let's say to support you growing up would have would have been maybe someone who was like a mentor? Or was it something, would it be a financial support, what would have actually helped you going up?

Missy Apple: 35:21

I think like, if there's, you know, surely someone in the school if someone could have tagged me in the school, and brought me and, and maybe brought in, my dad never would have done it, my mom couldn't have done it. So maybe a sibling or something and, and found out if I could have had, you know, maybe an after school program or something at a YMCA or something that would brought me in and, you know, 101 This is what your mom is going through, this is what your family members going through. And then, and this is actually what I I, I am working on something that I would love to do provide some to like after school services, you know, provide some tutoring, provide a laundry service, like the sounds. I don't know how this sounds, but I envision like a kid having a bag, you take it home, you put your laundry in it next day, you bring it with you, and maybe this is more suited for our YMCA, not a school setting, but we're gonna teach you how to do laundry where they weren't, you know, and if you're really young, we're gonna do the laundry for you. Or this is how to cook and this is how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich just if I had to had those kind of like nutrition, support, laundry was a big deal. Tutoring would have been amazing. Because there's, when you are as a child, you're under that much stress at home. You can't think, to concentrate on schoolwork. Like it's a struggle. And so I think to understand what it is, and then just have those practical, like active activities of daily living, you know, laundry, food, and then the the tutoring that would have been a game changer. You know, I'd throw a mentor in there that just sort of naturally evolved as we're doing these things together. And I also something else I would throw in there is help identify what the kiddos are good at, you know, how, what's your strength. And you can do all kinds of creative things with that. Let them help them identify what their talent is, or something they can feel positive about and grow and build confidence. It for me it was music. And I could sing and I could run really fast because I so I walked down that track team and I they put me right on varsity, you know, of course I only did it one year was expensive. We couldn't buy shoes, all that stuff. But they put me I was at the fastest person on the track team and I walked in in, you know, the the generic basketball shoes and outran everyone. And that was because I used to escape. I love horses. And I used to pretend like I was riding a horse. And I would run for hours and hours and hours outside. And just to escape what was inside the house. So yeah, so kind of yammering on a bit. But

Joel Kleber: 38:27

no, you said some fantastic points, then absolutely. And the one you love, I love what you said is about the because a lot of people in our situation have low self esteem or low self confidence. And it's important to find that thing you really like doing. And then if someone can see that, and they go right, you know, just do that all the time. And just push yourself into that. And then who knows what will come out of that. Right. And I think that's a really good point about identifying what skill you have to be sport or creativity or whatever. And then having you need someone there to help you. I'd like to sort of draw the right because, ya know, so imagine our path would be someone Missy had, you know, they could have helped you with the track stuff, oh, geez, you're a good runner. And maybe maybe they could have paid for the shoes or something. Or they could have you know, set you down and said look, that could be your ticket to get a scholarship to college or college or whatever it is. And, you know, just you need that sort of that older person has sort of helped you out and take a bit of interest. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that completely. Now, how did you? What were your? So you mentioned it then that your music and running was your sort of escape? So was it something that you realized, like, Look, I'm just going to sort of zone out of stuff. I'm just going to throw myself into a new heap of it. So was it something where you've done spent a lot of time in music growing up, or was it running? Did you spend just a heap of time of it just to sort of so you could avoid everything at home?

Missy Apple: 39:40

Well, so all my mom was very musical. And she was a country western singer used to sing and they'd have like these little jam sessions, you know, way back before I was born, and she would invite people over and she's cook and they pull up the instruments and they all play. So my older siblings have these great memories of mom doing that. And she would always sing in church. And she the older ones, she would take it as she sang on a radio station in Chicago, and then some. It's called the The Indiana roof. Ballroom, it's still going here in Indiana. And she would take the kids and they would sing. And she taught the kids how to harmonize. Well, that just trickled down. Everybody is saying at church. So I'll tell you this thing. And we play instruments, and there's professional musicians in the family and, and that was our escape. And that's when everybody was happy. Like, when we were all singing together, my dad was happy. And he took a lot of pride in the fact that we could all sing really well, and we could harmonize with anything. And so, and we were a spiritual bunch, like, when you look, and I'm telling you like one side of the story, like there's a whole nother side of the story that I I don't know how to talk about yet with my dad. So I don't want to dig into that. But it was especially challenging with both sides, just pure dysfunction. And so we really just immerse ourselves in music, it was an escape, that's where, you know, my sister got the lead in the play at school because she could sing or the musical at school, you know, my brother, he would sit down and play his violin or the piano, and mom would smile, and dad, we'd be happy. And it just brought this. I don't know, it wasn't a level of distraction, it was more therapy really was therapeutic. And so I just fell right in line with it, you know, and I could sing, and I was no one in high school. And until somebody convinced me to try out for the musical. And here I am, literally, the kid that has no friends, the stairs at the floor when she walked scared to death. And but I knew I could sing. And I, I got the lead in that musical. And it was a game changer for me. And then when I went to college, and I, I put myself through college, we all did, by recruiting for the school by singing and acting. And just we had this, I feel like God said, Okay, I'm gonna give this to you. Because this is gonna help you build confidence and, and be able to, you know, you can get up on a stage and perform and be what you wanted to be, you know, it was, it was just really a game changer for me. And then I had this confidence that just built through that. And, you know, and then did some professional acting just a little, you know, a little bit after that, but it was it was like, whoo, I can do this. I'm good at this, you know? So, but music, that that was a big thing that I think got us through. And again, I you know, when I look back, does it make sense that we're here, you know, I was one pen stroke from not being here, the doctors said, There's no way my mom should have had me, and my dad couldn't do it. You know, he saved my life that day, because he couldn't find the paper. So and that was true for my older brother number nine, and their family as well. Like, they were like, she should not have this child. And he couldn't do it. And we you know, both my brother and I are our number nine and number 10. And the family.

Joel Kleber: 43:39

And somebody mentioned earlier, which is you said about victim victimhood mentality and I think that's something that's good for you probably explain because I talk about it a lot. And because I used to, I used to use it as an excuse for a very long time. You know, look, I just sort of you sort of think the universe is going to handle all this stuff because you had a bad existence. So it sort of OSHA The world owes you but it doesn't you work out as you get older, it doesn't it's not going to look at you got to do it yourself. So you want to talk about the victim mindset or something from your perspective. And, and how maybe, did you ever will you ever in that sort of situation when then you had to pull yourself out of it? Or you're gonna talk about

Missy Apple: 44:15

that? Yeah, sure. Yeah. Because, you know, growing up when I had such low self esteem, and dealing with all this intense, like, just a crippling anxiety, you know, and being bullied and not having anyone to turn to for help and just having to step through that was such intense anxiety. And I, you know, sort of, you know, I got through college, and again, it was just, you didn't have a roadmap. I never had anyone like what fork do you you know, when you when I was in college, and we we never went out to eat? We didn't even do fast food, right? We were always gardening and And cooking at home. And I didn't know what I was doing. And it was almost as I was writing my book, like, I didn't talk about our circumstances for many, many years. And then in high school, I would share just a little bit. But when you share these kinds of details, like with the average person, I learned to quickly it's too much like, people. And when you're in high school, and that age and lack maturity, like life, or, you know what, you know, that is too much Well, for me, you know, this was, this is what I knew it was my life, but it evolved into I think, because I had such poor self esteem. It's almost like I wanted to apologize for the way I was by saying, Well, my mom has schizophrenia, mental illness, and she wasn't there for me. So this is why I don't know all this stuff. And this is why I'm, you know, not as good as everyone else. So I had like this thing going. And I realized I actually went to this conference, my oldest brother, number one, and number nine, had gone to this conference called focus, and it was in Kansas City, Missouri. And it was like this, this, I don't know, self discovery over a weekend, where they helped you kind of dive back into issues from childhood and kind of unpack some things and resolve some things. And it was during that I was terrified to go, but I went. And it was one of the best things I've ever done in my life. And I remember, like we had, we had unpacked a series of like, things that I had gone through, and I had like, there was a facilitator. And I had shared a story where my dad had said, she's not much to look at talking about me until she smiled. And I was I was, Oh, it's so painful at the time. Yeah, have your dad and my dad used to say, Oh, she's not this one. Not very smart. She could spell cat to save her life. Because I was a horrific speller, it had to work very hard to correct that two years. Now, I'm great speller. But, you know, when your dad is saying stuff like that about you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm dumb. I'm, you know, because of this, I'm not very smart. And it was the turning point where I had shared this story, and they just kind of looked at me, like, are you gonna keep the same narrative, or you're gonna keep with the same story that yeah, you're the youngest of 10. And this was what your health i, if that's what you're gonna settle for, you're gonna be okay with that. And I don't know what it was. And the way this facilitator said whatever he said, but it was like a light switch went off for me. And all of a sudden, I was like, This determination welled up in me and I was, I have a choice. I can choose, I can go figure things out. If I don't know, I can go ask somebody I think knows. And I can information on the interview them and I can figure this out. Like, there is. I don't know, I don't know, if it was a bad thing, I don't know. But it was just something that welled up inside of me. And I'm like, and it was so energizing. Like, I can determine my future, you know, all of a sudden, that old narrative, like dropped away, and you, you deal with that you unpack that as you mature and get older, but that was a big, just change for me, you know, to figure out that I'm, I'm not a victim of what I've, what I was born into, you know, and you, you also have to fight? Oh, my gosh, am I going to end up with this? Right? Am I going to inherit this? It's free. Like that's, that's a strong, you know, genetic symbol and not the 10 of us, none of us have it. We have a fair amount of you know, anxiety and depression that folks have dealt with, but no one has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, which is a miracle in itself. So, but that and and you know, I, I still bump up on things through life and things that I have to unpack and look at and say okay, this is become a recurring theme and it's not healthy and I've got to unpack this. But I'm, I'm pretty determined that you know, if I have to go get help if I have to go on medication if I have to, you know, exercise more i I'm big on mental health, healing, or coping with an illness. Like is an integrated approach because I saw them throw medicine after medicine after medicine at my mom and that did not work. But you know, when I can get her out, and To walk, or she would lift, she would become brighter. And, you know, through my own experience through some significant postpartum depression that I went through, and I had panic attacks, but when my second son was born, but I was so determined that my children would never have what I had, I was going to fight my way out of this. And by God I did and started yoga, and you know, meditation and watching what I eat, what you drink, or what you don't drink, supplements, and not isolating. That's a big one, you know, staying in relationship with other healthy people. In self development, those kinds of things, that's an inner I'm a firm believer integrated approach that would have significantly helped my mother.

Joel Kleber: 50:49

Now you're spot on Missy, and you want our percent right. And in Australia here, my mom before she passed away, she had, we're very lucky, we have a we have like a good health care system regards to anyone can get what they need. And because my mum was classed as a lot higher, higher risk, she got a lot more money from the government to help with services. And that was all that integrated living. So it'd be someone from the who would have lived experiences or whatever mental health condition is, I would take her out for coffee, you know, twice a week, or she'd like to take you to the gym and she'd go do yoga, even though she couldn't do it, like she just be there, right, like, but this is that they would do and I sort of understood the integrated living thing for her which was important, or they have someone come to her house every morning and give her a tablets or a nutritionist and all that sort of stuff. And she'd read me every day and tell me I've got another nutritionist. I've done that because he had a big problem with eating junk food and not exercising enough. And she told me I've exercise on this, you wouldn't say you're spot on about the integrative living thing, he would just want to go, you know, go to go get diagnosed with depression. And here's a whole bunch of antidepressants, and away you go, rather than saying, Well, are you exercising? You know, what's your relationships? Like? Do you have anything that you like doing that gives you confidence? These sorts of things? And I think you're right, that's, that's, that all helps, doesn't it? As you would know, that would have helped your mom and that that helps. That's majorly important.

Missy Apple: 52:00

Yeah, absolutely.

Joel Kleber: 52:02

I don't want I want to talk about your How did you so obviously, people you can't just it's very hard to just go Oh, that was the past and then just move on. Right? So you've got you're gonna have things that subconsciously or you're wiring from, from young like you might not realize you have, I never considered myself having PTSD or anything, right. But when I look at it objectively, you go well, there's a lot of trauma in that environment that I never really dealt with being a bloke you don't talk to anyone but but we're How did you? Yeah. Was it something where you got? Did you go actively see a psychologist or a therapist to sort of try and get to the to sort of tell your story open up to him? And then you sort of have some objections ago? Yeah. Geez, that was pretty full on and, you know, until you things to sort of get get better about your life? Or how did you? How have you gone through that?

Missy Apple: 52:51

Yeah, it was, gosh, I can't remember the exact catalysts of why I went, I think I was I was dealing with some anger issues with with my dad, actually. And my, again, my brother, there's 26 years between number one and me and my brother, my oldest brother is my hero, who's very wise. And I think he had seen that I was going through some things and and I was trying to understand the older I got, the more I'm like, starting to talk to my older siblings, like helped me understand that there's trunks, I don't remember it all, from my childhood. And I would go to my older siblings, and what do you remember about this period? Or what do you remember? And, and he had suggested, you should go see a counselor. And I was very resistant to it, because there was still such a stigma, you know, attached to it. Finally, you know, he said, If you are my daughter, and I was sort of like his daughter, he said, I would send you to this guy. And so I, my brother called range, I went, and I met with a guy and, you know, started to unpack things. And I felt better. It was like a step in the right direction, as sometimes, like when you do something that you've never done, and like has that backlash effect. So at first, I felt worse, like, oh, I shouldn't be talking about this. You're not supposed to talk about these things. And then I think it was the determination that I had way before I had kids, that when I did have children, they would they were going to have a much better life. They were going to have a great life. I was going to be the mom extraordinaire, you know, for these kids. And even before they were born, even before I was married, I was like informationally interviewing with my roommate in college. She was amazing. And I was talking to her parents, what do you do if you raise such a good person, you know, and I remember them looking at me like what? And so that started might Journey. I think a lot of it really, that fueled my, my keeping going back into counseling was this self awareness that was developing over time of, I've got some anger issues. And I've got anxiety issues for sure. Although I didn't know exactly what to call it back then. And I knew that I was going to need help. And I, when I was in college and seeing my roommates, parents, and seeing what, how they lived, all of a sudden lights are coming on like, Oh, wow. We were really, really, this was not healthy. And as I'm having these realizations, about my own upbringing, I'm saying, I'm going to need help, I'm going to need help. I had enough self awareness. I don't know how, but I did that, I'm going to need help. And so I started into counseling, and then I got married. And that didn't go well, the first time around. And through that, a lot of issues, a lot of counseling, you know, through that whole experience that helped me unpack more things. But you know, to be honest with you, I'm, I am just now I think into the journey of like, there's another suitcase that has to be unpacked for me now that I'm in my 50s. And I'm saying, you know, there's just some things that keep creeping up in my life. And I'm tired, like, I think I can, I've gotten over on it, and it's still there. And I like, Okay, we're going into another phase now, of I'm realizing just the effects of these. It was significant trauma. So I've just happened on I think his name is Russell Kennedy. And he's written a book called anxiety are acts and it's a something I've never heard before. So I'm just starting to read his book. And, you know, I'm packing, again, another suitcase. So you know, it's not as heavy as they used to be. But it's something else I've got to open up and Okay, let's, let's deal with this and, and make some more progress.

Joel Kleber: 57:14

Yeah, that's great. That's great to hear. But I think, yeah, there's a lot of trauma. And it's sort of interesting, because I never associated Well, it's just your that's what you grew up with, you know, I mean, like you don't know, it's all traumatic and stuff in that, like, it was not ideal, but it's sort of you got to have that foresight to realize when you look at if you did speak to a psychologist or counselor objective, they probably would tell you, you've got a lot of people in our situations would have had a lot of trauma, right? We've just been really good to sort of push it away and deal with but as you said, it can bubble up with different things, whether it be anger issues, or people alcoholism, or whatever it is bad relationships, whatever it is so right you've got to deal with it. But I'm just gonna say what what do you think you've gained from your, from your childhood that you wouldn't let's say for example, you had we felt without having the mental illness involved in your family? What do you think would have changed? Or what do you think you've got as a skill now that you've got from your childhood? that others wouldn't?

Missy Apple: 58:07

Ya know, yeah, it's a great question. I'm, I I would say I'm an empath, like I have empathy for my sons is saying, when son is very, very empathetic, but I can empathize with people and and I actually listen. And I sort of picked up as I've gotten old, like, I'm very sincere when I asked someone how are you doing? Like, I really want to know it's not just a turn of race. Oh, yeah, I'm great. How are you you know, on the law, and that's one thing I'm very interested in people and being authentic. Like, that's one of my core values because I lived the other way for so long having to act one way when you know, all this turmoil is going on. So being authentic is very important to me. And I think I draw that out of people. I can read a room I can read people and like subtle little changes in behavior. And that came from trying to navigate my dad trying to navigate my mom. That would be my superpower you know, but it makes me great in my job because I can I can just kind of tell like when somebody's got a certain what's important to them and what's not what's annoying, what's not oh, gosh you know, it has been good, my my boys. I have great relationship with them. And, you know, they tell me, sometimes too much, but it's I have a really incredible bond with them where, like from a very young age because we never talked about how we felt about anything. I was very purposeful with them can when they're very young, something would happen, they'd hit their head, their hand or something. I'm like, you know, are you did that hurt, you know, helping them come out with? Or are you mad? Are you angry? Are you do you feel shame do helping them give words to emotions. And they're fabulous communicators now. And we're all very tight. And I think that came from being very purposeful of, we're going to talk about things, we're going to unpack things appropriately. So you know, and I am really proud that my, my three guys are just, and they've got these great hearts, you know, they're just really they're all very giving and caring. And I would say, that's very true of my family as well. I think they're very empathetic, my siblings were very empathetic, very generous people. Having gone through some really tough, tough times. Those are just a couple of things that come to mind the great question, I'll have to think about that more.

Joel Kleber: 1:01:10

All right, well, you must be very resilient, because you obviously have, you know, you've got this going at home. And then you go to school, and unfortunately, you know, someone's bullying here as well, like, it's just right. So you must be extremely resilient. Because a lot of people could go one way or the other, they could crumble and go, right, I'm gonna be an alcoholic or drug addiction or whatever. Right? Well, you, you've managed to stay on the straight and narrow. And you know, and yes, don't go on and have a beautiful family and have a great career and stuff. So you must be extremely resilient.

Missy Apple: 1:01:38

Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there's, there's not much that you could throw at me and everyday lives that I would not be able to handle, and knock on wood. Please use us. Because

Joel Kleber: 1:01:53

that's why they want to move on people in our situation now is because like, you know, from being in business, but like the one the number one skill, most people say if you need to be an entrepreneur successful is resilience. It's the number one indicator of success. It's not about how smart you are, or how good luck when you are whatever it's about, can you just stay in there and hang in there as long as you can. And the advantage of as of our situations is that we had a really tough situation, which is going to be far more tougher than most anything we're going to experience as an adult. So that's sort of the point I wanted to get across to people's younger people, especially like if you're going through a bad situation, currently, it's almost training in a way for the real world. And the real world is not going to be able to really like if you just go back to your usual mustn't use your traumas, but use your past experiences as your sort of like your cookie jar, you can go in and sort of have a cookie, right, that I've been through that that's far harder than what I'm going to do today. Right user does that feel to you success? I think we've got a good advantage in a way I would say,

Missy Apple: 1:02:50

right, yeah. And I guess I just, I'm the most determined person that I know. I like, for me, the resiliency determination. I was asking, again, my husband, I'm like, What do you think? And he's like, Oh, my God, you're the most determined person. No, never means no. It's why I'm so great. You know, again, in sales, no, never mean that. There's always a side, there's always a way around. And again, that does point right back. Because there were such incredibly difficult situations like having to get on that damn bus. When I knew I was gonna have gum thrown in my hair. I was saying that people weren't gonna let me sit down. It was torture. And I had to walk through it. I didn't have a choice. My dad would have, you know, lost it on me. I had to get on that bus. And it was awful. And I had like, there are many experiences like that. So when I you go through stuff like that, then yeah, I know in sales or, or whatever, having to something as small as having to wait in a line. And people are freaking out. All right. Like, yeah, this calm, calm down. This is an absolutely nothing. Yeah.

Joel Kleber: 1:04:02

Again, trouble with my on my girlfriend, because I always say it's not a problem. I say it's not a problem all the time. All right. Yeah. They're trying to make something into a problem like nasty.

Missy Apple: 1:04:11

Absolutely nothing. Yeah, it's

Joel Kleber: 1:04:13

frustrating all the time. But it's gonna say yeah, I feel sorry. I'm really sorry to hear about the bullying stuff. Because I think that's something I've common theme I've had from other people on here where they've said, they were bullied at school, but it's very annoying for me, because I didn't have that experience at school. Maybe I had a little bit with one person. But that said, I didn't have that. So it's hard for me to really, I can only imagine how hard it would have been to have this home situation plus the school situation. So yeah, what's some advice or what do you think for someone who was in that situation or what can be done to help it?

Missy Apple: 1:04:49

Yeah, you know, if if there was a bullying situation and your parents are not available, it doesn't give one parent absolutely going and share and tell and if you don't have that, then you Yeah, go tell the school counselor tell someone don't, don't just try to get it out and, and isolate, you know, if it's if it's, you know, someone like us, you know, who would don't have that parental support and like low self esteem, you're gonna want to just suck it up and endure. And you don't have to do that you there are resources that tell you, you know, the tolerance for bullying now is at an all time low. I mean, you say the word bullying, and here in the states where they're jumping to deal with it, it's a lot more a hot subject where it was just not tolerated. So you know, and I had, I had one of my boys, you know, was bullied, boy, you know, and I, I need your reacted and was in that in that school, but we haven't dealt with. So if you can't tell your parents and tell ya tell somebody to get support, because I can't imagine that it would be if you bring it, you know, put light on it. Like often, you know, so much of the dysfunction and so much of everything, for years and years. It's like you don't talk about it, you don't feel it, you don't share it. Right. And and once you can get an exposure, get some light on it, then it can be dealt with. So I think that would be my number one bit of advice.

Joel Kleber: 1:06:24

And what about some advice for a young person in whose parents have mental illness, what some things you could tell them that you think would have helped you if you heard it? When I was younger?

Missy Apple: 1:06:36

Yeah, I would say, you know, the biggest debt of hope is like, I'm an example of someone who lost a really tough road, it was really tough. And, and again, I had it from I was dodging both sides that my, my dad and my mom. And if I can make it boy, you can make it as well. And I and I've lived a great life. And you just there are resources and there's help. And you're you're not a victim of all of this, you can choose your own stars, you can you can figure it out, if you don't know if you've not been taught. There's this beautiful thing called the informational interview, where you go to someone who you think does know? And you say, can I have 20 minutes of your time I'm trying to learn this and no one everybody no one's ever said no to me. And then you can ask questions, and you can learn about what you don't know if it's how to get into college, if it is how to try out for the high school, you know, football team tracking, whatever. Just ask for help. What else? You know, if it's, if it is, you know, if you're like, maybe college age, you know, don't be afraid to go get counseling, and have somebody want one safe person that you can just unpack things with? Because I think so, so many will get stuck up here and just ruminate and your own thoughts and you can't trust your own thoughts. Sometimes Sometimes you need another person to come in, especially when you just don't have a good example. Or you have no example. Then that is amazing to have someone step in and say no, I would feel the same way or No, I don't think that you this, this train of thought is helpful for you just kind of speak some truth and some hope and some light into your life. You know, seek out listen to these podcasts where you can say that there are others like us, and listen to these great success stories and advice and no hope there's all kinds of hope. So I think, yeah, you know, just get determined and just know like, if man, if you and I can do it, they can do it, too. You're going to make it. Absolutely. Okay.

Joel Kleber: 1:09:12

Yeah. That's a great point. Before we end it said, I just wanted to ask you quickly about your book, your writing, you want to talk about your book, your writing, when are you planning on releasing it? And what what's it going to be about?

Missy Apple: 1:09:23

Yeah, so I the working title right now is the wounds that made me whole and it's just you know, how to survive and thrive. Big raised by parents with mental illness. And I'm still sort of forming how I'm doing this. So it's probably a year out still a lot of writing still to do and a lot of editing and all self publish. So but I again, it's sharing much of what we've talked about. I'll share quite a few stories in there and through my lessons learned I'm sharing my journey. And again, it is just to provide and to give hope to those who are in the situation who maybe are too afraid to talk to others, but would read a book or listen to a book on, you know, audible or whatnot. So, and yeah, so that's the primary reason for for writing the book I hope to include I've written, I'm a musician, I've started writing songs of hope and healing that I'll probably integrate into the, the audible portion of the book. So yeah, I'm excited to do that just to be I'm a creative. I like doing things just a bit different. So I'll incorporate that into the book as well. And so the audio version

Joel Kleber: 1:10:48

theme, we're going to share one of your songs. So hopefully, when you were on this, we'll put it on a separate thing. I reckon. So we'll share it.

Missy Apple: 1:10:55

Yeah, Roger, but yeah, I'll get it. Proper recording of it, give it to you.

Joel Kleber: 1:10:59

Yeah. And it might make you happy to hear this. But in Australia, we have. There's a there's an organization called satellite Foundation, who specifically look after kids who young kids who have a parent with a mental illness, so they bring him together. And they cause a lot of kids can't verbalize what they're going through that it's all for expression. So they're the music classes, they do art, they do photography, they do all these things. So songwriting and stuff is all part of that. And that's what this organization does. And the government's finally funding them. So they've after like, being volunteered, they've got like $12 million from the government here, which is great. So because they're now starting to see the importance of supporting these kids. So here we there, it is very slowly happening over here in regards to these organizations, specifically, are there to help kids and that's the channel they're doing it through is with music. And it's amazing. Yeah, because the point is, because every kid they bring into the room has a parent with a mental illness. So imagine how powerful that would have been for you as a young person. You're on a bus and you go from the main city, and you've got 50 kids, and they're all got the same thing. And that's yeah, that's what the point of it is. I think that's the most helpful thing I really think would be for would have been for us. It's just having if you had another family or something that you knew of had a similar situation or kids.

Missy Apple: 1:12:05

Yeah, I think it's really importantly, amazing.

Joel Kleber: 1:12:08

But what I'd love to do Mrs. love to have you on when your books done, looking forward to sharing your your song as well. And thank you for making the time because it's hard, obviously being in different time zones. So yeah, thank you very much for making the time and, and putting the hat on as well. It's given given the country. Yeah. You're amazing person. And thank you for reaching out and sharing your story. And I'm really happy to hear you're successful and you've got a great family. And you're happy in life and all your siblings get along which I think even what that's magic, having 10 siblings, which are like that, that's not very common. That's fantastic.

Missy Apple: 1:12:42

Yeah, it's amazing. Thank you. I so appreciate this opportunity. And I'm just so glad I found you. So I was listening. They are listening to all your all your work. So thanks.

Joel Kleber: 1:12:52

Nice to meet you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. All right.